I do not recommend putting the element in contact with the walls of the flue pipe though. Find the answer below. That’s what I though Rob, thanks, I guess there’s ‘no free lunch’. However, during testing I found it wasn’t necessary because our hot water use follows such a regular pattern. Brian D Nelson. I have seen a number of copper models, but am considering simply wrapping PEX tightly around 8 feet of my waste water line to preheat the cold water entering my tank. I don’t know for certain if that will happen within the lifetime of the tank, but it is probably best if the element can slide freely inside the tube. See the section “Why are electric water tanks more efficient than gas ones?” in the article above for more details. Anyhow, I’m about halfway through it , just had a few questions …. I contemplate buying a larger heater but the remembered my old 30 gallon gas water heater was just sitting there. It is essentially a hole through the entire tank, open to the air at both the top and the bottom. i used a ceramic plug from a brooding lamp and a 200 watt bulb, and have HOT water again! )fittings common to all water heaters. Build at YOUR OWN RISK. Looking to convert a 48000 BTU patio heater to Natural Gas. For both gas and electric models, a tankless water heater’s overall energy efficiency is measured using an energy factor (EF) rating. Thanks for the feedback. Looking into some sort of combination of the two. So whether one size element is more efficient than another really depends how you are controlling the element. It is a nice conservation feedback system. First of all, when I first lowered my modified range element into the center space, the coil barely touching the inside wall of the cylinder as described, it began to smoke when I plugged it in for a test run. Question 1: Would you convert your electric water heater and heat pump to natural gas if you had the option? (what?) Nothing appeared burned when I pulled out the coil. The smaller stove top burner is about the same size and shape as the gas burner I took out. Comparing natural gas vs electric heating, Build a heliostat for solar heating and lighting, Build a Solar Attic for Heating, Cooling, and Growing Plants, Turn off the pilot flame of your gas furnace in the summer, Convert from gas to electric space heating, How many seconds of idling is equivalent to starting your engine, Build an electric foundry for melting scrap aluminum, I could achieve a higher efficiency by installing a 1000W or 1500W heating element and reducing the heating time accordingly. Natural gas furnaces today approach 100 percent efficiency. That said, you might want to pick up a few elements since they may break during the shaping process. This was a temporary improvisation. I believe the cost of electricity was calculated at 7 cents per killwatt hr. My cost has gone up to just under 10 cents/kWh since I wrote the article. It is probably about equivalent to an electric on demand system with a preheating tank. I looked over points 4 and 5, but I don’t see the contradiction. I’ve looked at heat exchangers like you described but I determined there was not a big enough payback to justify the effort/expense for me, given how little hot water I use. tank to allow the 75watts to heat sufficiently for 20 hours recoverytime. We have 2000 watts of solar panels currently and this is a possibility. Not to sound to harsh but you have just created one scary tank. If your home needs to be rewired, it can easily add $3,000 or more to the cost of installing a tankless water heater. The heating element is not in contact with anything except air. That would be 80% efficient… etc on up to 10kW or so where you essentially have a hot water on demand system. Two smaller tanks would have a greater surface area to volume. Rob SO, YES, Please use caution where children and/or elderly are involved. That’s 463 W. So our water heating efficiency prior to converting from gas to electric was 58/463 = 12.5%. This is typical of a natural gas water heater with an open flue and a continuous pilot flame (the … The first step you have to do is checking your electric panel. thank you Your conversion is awesome and is exactly what I’ve been looking for. The problem should not persist or recur after the first 2-3 minutes. Hot water tanks typically hold over 100 litres of water. Hi Rob loved the article has really came in handy as my gas was shut off due to a gas line break in the area. One tank would be heated on a timer to provide for normal hot water use. 8 hours later we had 40 gallons of reasonably warm water. For the past 4 years which is a new level of suck. (family of 5 taking stove-top boiled “bucket baths” hasn’t been much fun…), Coincidently, We were also was “lucky” enough to have our electric oven decide it was “its time” a few mod ago … (been one of the years..), this post was just the thing i needed to give me the courage to give it a go (I have a Tesla style mind with a Jed Clampet education…i generally end up figuring these types of things out so long as the ADD doesn’t kick in, lol…. Actually, a “proper immersion heater” would not be any more efficient. I’m going to try add a tin-can cover (or SOMEthing) Mine is now still open and I’m loosing a LOT of heat that way. It will be useful for you because any leaks will be detected easily. Hi Jeff, This was a great read. Much more useful would be if manufacturers specified the thermal conductance of a tank (in Watts per degree C). Today, tankless water heater energy factors range between .64 and .91 for gas-fired models and up to .99 for electric … Look forward to hearing your advise. I wonder because i rent my home and I would like to convert without unduly damaging or stressing the existing system. Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if it were left on for a few days straight with no water usage and no timer. P.S. I posted an article about that project but enough readers expressed concerns about carbon monoxide poisoning that I took it down (a ridiculous concern really since a single pilot flame is unlikely to produce enough carbon monoxide to do any harm, even if exhausted directly into your home). Again, it doesn’t seem to be smoking after about 2 to 4 minutes, but the heater is indoors enclosed in a built enclosure by the landlord, in the kitchen. When I said, “I had to bend inside of tank”, I meant I had to bend the ELEMENT, while I was feeding it into the opening left where burner was removed. Install the heating element. On my tank the thermal expansion valve releases water into a pipe that goes into a drain pipe that empties the water outside the house. This means the heating stove element heats the air first, than the metal and the water in a slow and inefficient heat transfer process… therefore, there will be significant heat losses from the tank to the exterior if it is not very well insulated (so your plugging feature at the end of the chimney tube has to be 100% sealed and of very good insulating thermal properties). I’m wondering, I literally just plugged mine in, how long does it take you to heat water from room temp? Most hot water tanks have an Energy Factor or EF rating. I’m about to install water heater in new construction. I did not bend, fold, cut, mutilate, etc. Hi Steve, My gas water heater costs me about $6 a month to run (one half an MCF per month) gas usage in the summer with a gas cook stove. Shape the heating element to fit inside the tube through the water tank. MIGHT not need one if the PILOT-LIGHT/bulb thing pans out. Hi Jim, You can lift the wood block occasionally and look into the tube, checking the wiring for any melting and smelling around for anything burning. I noticed the coil I made was slightly bigger in diameter that it was touching the tube. Thanks Rob, Depending on the mode of failure of the tank, it can act like a rocket, literally destroying your home and launching itself several hundred feet into the air. More later Then I read the rest of the posts. And then, plug chimney with. If you do not already have gas service, you could be looking at a hefty price tag to install new gas lines. Definitely need a good 110v timer. The power voltage in the grid is 240 V. I also have an 1350 W almost new oven element in the garage. Water has 24 times higher thermal conductivity than air so it does not require much contact area to transfer a lot of heat. As we know that electric water heater can also give so many benefits. Unfortunately, converting a programmable thermostat for hot water tank use is beyond the scope of this article. The idea of using any flammable parts for the cap or the insulation really makes me cringe. In other words, a typical hot water tank requires enough power that you can empty the entire tank every hour and still have hot water. Also, even if it lasts, it will be less efficient because you are blowing hot air through the center tube rather than heating air within the tube (ie the heat escapes rather than being contained and forced into the water tank). The other would only be turned on during times of peak demand (ex when you have house guests). The disadvantages are that timers for 220V are more expensive and you may not have 220V available close by if you are converting a gas hot water tank (not a problem for new construction). That would be 50% efficient. I also did a cost analysis in the article comparing my measured gas usage before and my measured electrical consumption after. Modifications to the home’s piping are required, and a proper venting system will need to be installed as well. Do try this at home (where else would you? Experiments on my own hot water tank showed that simply capping the tube at the top of the tank by placing a block of wood over it reduced the rate of heat loss from the tank to around 60% of it’s normal rate (ie 40% of the energy loss is up the chimney). Used the same method you suggested but instead of using a coil I made a metal cap and drilled a hole in the top and attached a 1500w heat gun. The recovery time would be almost 1 full day though, so you would have to constrain your hot water use to once per day and live with luke-warm water most of the time. If you are using a timer and heating up your tank once per day and then consuming exactly one tank of hot water replacing it with cold water, then a more powerful element will be much more efficient simply because the tank will be spending less time at temperature, thus dissipating less heat to the surroundings. The tube is designed for good heat transfer to the water around it but much of the heat goes right through the tank, up the chimney. But if you care about peak temperature (ie if you only want hot water at a particular time of day, and don’t mind having cooler water for the rest of the day) then the larger element offers a significant advantage. With a meager 150W bulb, it doesn’t seem very efficient, but then again not much energy can be wasted since I don’t use 33 (imp) gallons of hot water per day. In practice they still dissipate heat from the pipes themselves and a preheating tank is typically installed in series to reduce the peak electrical load required to raise the water to the final temperature. So the fist time you get stuck away from home for a few days the tanks overheats, boils and the T&P valve spews if your lucky. Heat guns are not designed for continuous operation and I would think that the lifetime will be short. Have you experienced this and know of a remedy? If all goes well (no melting wires or the smell of anything burning), plug the cord into a timer. I WILL TRY, Regarding using a heat gun, I would be very concerned about safety. I’m thinking now that my gas control is messed up, it made no sense, the burner hasn’t run for over 24 hours so I know the tank has to be cold. I don’t see why another oven element or even a stove-top burner (coil) wouldn’t work, if it would fit in the opening. Any thoughts on this ? I really want to convert to all electric. Reach inside and pull out a spiral shaped length of metal. However, assuming no problems with the preceding a simple bob connected to the fill aparatus may solve the extra water to heat to problem straight away on the cheap and in theory reduce your current expenditures by a logical half or thereabouts in normal use scenarios. Warning!!! Burner comes right out – 3 nuts (2 small, 1 larger gas lines) Push it back into the tank to get the lines clear A.O. Heating the tank from ambient to hot is less then 7 hours. I’m not sure what the typical usage is that manufactures assume to determine their EF values but I suspect it’s in the ballpark of 2 full tanks per day. What could be other alternative “Heating Elements” that may be already available in our homes just in case. They are about $40 and you have to replace the thermistor to get to the right temperature range for hot water. Also, it is possible that the bare terminals of the element could contact the inside of the water tank, also causing an electrical hazard. That means that for a given power input, say 100W, an element in the air column will run hotter than an element in the water. I was thinking, could you use two elements in series, with the connection between the two elements at the bottom of the tank ? And I hate those gas connection fees (not usage) and i appreciate your response and many thanks for all informative and very helpful articles you published and may the Lord bless you and your family. By the way, my original element is still functioning fine after 5 years with no noticeable deterioration so lifetime does not seem to be an issue. Hi Ron, Hi Jack, I found that a 520W heating element was satisfactory. Even an insulated hot water pipe will easily dissipate all its heat to the surroundings in a matter of hours because its surface area to volume ratio is so high. They work great and are a little easier to work with, bending them into a single long oval shape. Install a thermal fuse or thermal switch to prevent overheating if the element is inadvertently left on continuously or plugged into an outlet with no timer. How much does natural gas cost? Just to clarify. I just used the normal 40/60/75/100 lookig bulbs. On this setup we were able to have 3 showers in the morning and 2 baths, later that afternoon another 2 showers and a bath. The thermal fuse and switch linked above are rated for a maximum of 10A. I agree. If you shower in the morning, your water tank will be relatively cool during the day and a solar collector can be used to heat the tank directly. But I didn’t skimp on safety and tested every step of the way including ohm out the element after bending and checking to make sure the inner wire didn’t short out to outside metal. ?? The other could be turned on manually when needed (ex when you have house guests). Put simply, most gas hot water tanks put more heat up the chimney than they put into the water. There’s a guy here (KC) on CL, (not me) that does this for $150 I suspect that when running a 220V element on 110V, the temperature is already much lower than the rated temperature of the element. Typical household hot water use is around 125 to 250 litres per day. It doesn’t matter through what resistance the power is transfered to reach the water. Repeated thermal expansion and contraction of the element may cause rubbing which, over a period of years, may wear away the element (resulting in a short circuit) or the wall (resulting in a water leak). I turned of the gaswaterheater like you did. Hot water tanks are generally sized to meet peak demand rather than typical demand which makes sense since who wants to have visitors suffer through a cold shower. (what I had) NOTE:- I live in Ontario near Niagara falls. )… but do so at your own risk. I then connected the copper wires to an extension cord. But it works better than I could have hoped. Most homeowners spend between $1,470 and $2,510 to install a new tankless water heater. I haven’t got a chance to check out the rest of the site. Kudos to you! So instead of capping it, seems like allowing it breathe would be smarter? At first glance you might think that this is just a waste of water rather than a waste of energy – it’s only cold water after all – but what it really means is that after any hot water use, 1.75 litres of hot water remains in our pipes and simply dissipates heat to the surroundings. This FACT makes all advertized usage cost inacurate. I’m thinking if using a round dishwasher element (have one) down below instead of the light bulbs. The power is simply that energy divided by the time (one month) in seconds or 1200000/(30*24*60*60) = 0.463 kW. E.J. This myth, unfortunately, is entirely true. Wired it up and sealed the connections with high temp RTV wrapped in fiberglass. 2 individual circuits? Hi Lourdes, I may consider installing another, much smaller tank inside the home as described above, but keeping the current big tank in series. Slide the coiled element into the tube. You want an element that will produce 500 to 1000 Watts of power on 120V AC. In the case of a water trough, it’s no problem because it is not pressurized. and should be Rob, I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to share this creative genius with me and the world. I have not seen these designed for hot water heaters (though I haven’t looked recently), but they are common for electric base-board heaters (do a search for “programmable thermostat baseboard”. Isn’t it an advantage to be able to do so without making any irreversible modifications? (It cost about $5000.00 all together with tax, etc. A super-heated pocket of air in the middle of the tank is not the same as a real electric water heater. I am interested to try this conversion however i would like to verify a few things if you don’t mind first i have no idea if the tube of the tank where you put the element inside is full of water or not because i’m just curious if it is full of water and the element will submerge on it (with the bare end) would it be creating a short cicuit? Ideally, it should slide in freely, making only light contact with the walls of the tube. The idea is interesting but I would like to make some comments please: Friday night was the first time in over 4 years I had a hot shower in my home with hot water that was NOT heated on the stove. The air rises up into the flue. Look up the ratings for real electric heaters. Basement is about 75F, OUTSIDE temp is about 95F last few days. The 67% I measured is real efficiency which is the amount of energy that reaches the point of use (as hot water) divided by the amount of energy put into the tank (as electricity). This was fine until we had house guests so in anticipation I Bought 1.25 gpm shower heads and tried a 300 watt bulb. You may also subscribe to comments without commenting. I dropped the coil inside and plugged it in. Since our garage is not insulated, I would have to heat the big tank in the winter but only enough to prevent freezing. When the temperature drops, the switch closes again. Then during our heating season (which is about 7 months out of the year) the heat dissipated from the tank will not be wasted. But I also have a cool possibility with my Outback controller- it has an auxiliary port that looks like a telephone port. For example, 4 hours seems to be about right for our two-shower-per day household in the summer. It’s funny how it changed through the years some people don’t read. and finally , i saw a neat video a kid posted on you tube where he made a free space heater out of an old coffee can, some bolts, and copper springs (i believe he shorted out the 2 car batteries he had wired in series to it) it was charged by solar i believe) could this possibly be viable here? That enclosure has a vent at the top side, and of course there is the metal chimney pipe for the gas heater. There are several other things I’m planning to do as priorities and time permit: On the subject of reducing total amount of water heated by replacing oyur standard tank with two smaller tanks, it might be fairly feasible to install essentially something similiar to the little bob that hands in a toilet. Conversion back to gas takes 5-10 minutes. If instead you are targeting a constant temperature setpoint and keeping your tank hot throughout the day, then a lower wattage element will be more efficient since that will result in less time spent at high temperatures. As long as the element can take the heat (and stove elements can) it is not a problem. Hi Cliff, This is a common misconception. If you want high heat available all the time, then you can set your timer to heat a couple hours at a time at a few different times during the day, however, this will consume more energy since the average continuous temperature of the tank will be higher. I don’t have a timer yet. We use about 40 litres of hot water per day for showers (yes, I measured it). I WILL TRY, Whether you convert your tank or not, you should ensure your T&P (temperature and pressure) relief valve is functioning properly. (series? That’s an interesting idea, but I don’t know how it could be implemented practically, and I have my doubts whether it would be effective. In addition, your already heating with electric :S .. Where you would save money is if you installed a timer, to turn on the water heater only at the times you require it .. but a 220V timer is fairly expensive. It’s normal for the element to smoke a little bit or smell a little bit for the first several minutes of use, much like you might experience when plugging in a new stove element on a stove for the first time. be HIGH TEMPERATURE insulated, like those found on an old CLOTHES IRON. Thanks for your feedback. Would like to build hybrid system, maybe convection (thermo-siphoning similar to the one you built) but use a water heater as storage tank. Have an electrician (assuming you won't be doing it yourself) bring the new power drop to the water heater ahead of time so you don't have to go without hot water for a long time. Still testing the 200W long life incandescent clear bulb about 14 hours per day, with minor scheduling adjustments, and it seems to be ideal for my needs. Warning!!! I’ve had no issues going on 12 years now operating on the same element. The thermal fuse goes somewhere in series with the element. I have also been wondering about putting the coil in through the bottom. the INSULATION on the wires tended to BAKE… and eventually harden and crack and this could There’s no way to stop the dissipation of heat completely, but I could reduce it significantly by adding more insulation around the outside of the tank. In fact, it may even absorb heat from the surroundings if the incoming water temperature is lower than the outside air temperature. i just wanted to say thank you for the great info here! Thanks for the update. I have had to buy 2 bulbs during this time but it is a small price to pay. If you have gas lines running to your home, installing a natural gas water heater may be the best option for you. It takes two hours to get to perfect 130 degrees. I forgot Many people find that the high… Solar water heating is one of the easiest and least costly ways of extracting useful power from sunlight and has one of the shortest pay back periods of any solar technology. Thanks in advance.. Hi David, Thank You Rob, Where will the overheat valve spay the water? Any thoughts? Pushing the chimney aside you should have access to the top of the tube running through the tank. first hot shower since summertime! wire at the BOTTOM of the tank because heat rises. These pipes are in direct thermal contact with the water tank and have a much greater cross sectional area than the wires. Typical Long Island cape house, a little over 1000 sq ft., and just me and my wife. Assuming the 80% reduction holds true year round, I expect to consume about 1100 kWh of electricity per year. It will work under normal operating conditions but could be a fire hazard if the element is ever left on continuously (intentionally or otherwise). Thanks for your help. From that spec, one could determine the baseline power consumption and cost that the tank will have just to maintain a certain temperature above ambient, assuming no water consumption. I had to add many blankets of insulation around the With either method, there is simply nowhere else for the heat to go but into the tank. I bet you can find a good working used unit in your local classifieds for <$100 any day of the week. There is also a danger of explosion since air is compressible and will expand violently if the tank ruptures, unlike water which will simply leak. It can achieve a higher peak temperature for less energy consumption. hey rob , i put a 500watt charcoal starter where the burner would be an dtested it after three hours only acouple seconds of hot water .. any thoughts on what i could do with what i have ? Fortunately the planned new location under our stairs will reduce the distance to the point of use to about 25% of the current distance. You could streach out the heating element to one just one loop like a long U and fill the inner tube with just enough sand to cover the element. Every day I have a nice hot shower with water that is being heated only by the pilot flame!! OK, Quick(?) This is typical of a natural gas water heater with an open flue and a continuous pilot flame (the most common type currently in residential use), and yes, it is pathetic. All things considered I can’t see any advantage to using stove elements. DIY that pays back dividends. We have a solar system for DHW (no standby) and on the third or fourth rare cloudy day the showers get shorter or skipped. My gas line is rusting out and needs replacing now, but it will cost many thousands. or is nichrome different? To avoid leak, you can add leak detector. Waterheatertimer.org is a great resource on everything to do with water heaters. An electric one would cost me about $40 a month. But I have also been able to scrounge a small electric water tank heater. Timers for 120V circuits cost less than $20. In the absolute worst case that you don’t install a thermal fuse or thermal switch and your T&P valve isn’t functioning (or someone capped it because it was dripping) and you connect the heating element to continuous power (or your timer is faulty), you might be surprised to know what might happen. You’re very welcome. So I would assume that this heater has significant more heat losses to the exterior than a convectional electrical water heater tank… (even at the bottom of the tank once it is heated it is not directly insulated and eventually heat will “escape” from the bottom that has no insulation)… Do not use a wooden cap as shown in the photos. What do you think of the heat gun idea since it is heating the air a little more evenly because it is forced air? This article describes modifications to a natural gas appliance, as well as custom 120V AC electrical wiring. Some parts of the element might lightly touch the tube walls, but the surface of the heating element is not electrically conductive so that doesn’t matter. A quick search turned up this page. Whichever method you choose, cover exposed wire or terminals with heat shrink to reduce the danger of short circuits as much as possible. 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